http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080328/ap_ ... ath_prayer

By ROBERT IMRIE, Associated Press Writer Fri Mar 28, 6:16 AM ET

WESTON, Wis. - Police are investigating an 11-year-old girl's death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor.
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An autopsy showed Madeline Neumann died Sunday of diabetic ketoacidosis, a condition that left too little insulin in her body, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said.

She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, the chief said Wednesday, noting that he expects to complete the investigation by Friday and forward the results to the district attorney.

The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said that she and her family believe in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but that they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors.

She insisted her youngest child, a wiry girl known to wear her straight brown hair in a ponytail, was in good health until recently.

"We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks," she said Wednesday. "And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover. We saw signs that to us, it looked like she was recovering."

Her daughter — who hadn't seen a doctor since she got some shots as a 3-year-old, according to Vergin — had no fever and there was warmth in her body, she said.

The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body.

Family members elsewhere called authorities to seek help for the girl.

"My sister-in-law, she's very religious, she believes in faith instead of doctors ...," the girl's aunt told a sheriff's dispatcher Sunday afternoon in a call from California. "And she called my mother-in-law today ... and she explained to us that she believes her daughter's in a coma now and she's relying on faith."

The dispatcher got more information from the caller and asked whether an ambulance should be sent.

"Please," the woman replied. "I mean, she's refusing. She's going to fight it. ... We've been trying to get her to take her to the hospital for a week, a few days now."

The aunt called back with more information on the family's location, emergency logs show. Family friends also made a 911 call from the home. Police and paramedics arrived within minutes and immediately called for an ambulance that took her to a hospital.

But less than an hour after authorities reached the home, Madeline — a bright student who left public school for home schooling this semester — was declared dead.

She is survived by her parents and three older siblings.

"We are remaining strong for our children," Leilani Neumann said. "Only our faith in God is giving us strength at this time."

The Neumanns said they moved from California to a modern, middle-class home in woodsy Weston, just outside Wassau in central Wisconsin, about two years ago to open a coffee shop and be closer to other relatives. A basketball hoop is set up in the driveway.

Leilani Neumann said she and her husband are not worried about the investigation because "our lives are in God's hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do."
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It usually takes quite a chunk of time for a child's blood sugar to rise high enough to become comatose, and by that point you can literally smell them dying. Is this not a clear cut sign of criminal negligence?

Nope.

I don't see this as being any different than if the family were Jehovah's Witnesses and the girl needed a blood transfusion to survive. JW's (as I'm sure you're aware) forbid receiving blood from someone else and as far as I'm aware, none have ever been charged with criminal negligence. Why should these people? Because they're Christians?

But unlike Jehovah's Witnesses, these people do not follow a specific, organized doctrine. Their Christianity is unspecified. They should be treated in a state ward.

I think JW's should be just as liable. Blood transfusion is a little different and situational, I wonder what happens when a JW arrives as an unconscious trauma patient and needs blood. I can't remember any type of concern or situation arising while attending trauma calls. You might know more about this area than me, what's the process after pulling blood from john/jane doe and running to the blood bank with the little cooler, do they do any investigating or just go for the transfusion?

If it's going to be mandatory for me to have health insurance in the future, or face punishment, some jackass who let's their child slowly slip into a coma from elevated blood sugar and die because they would rather pray than seek medical aid better be prosecuted.

I would think they would just do the transfusion. If there's an unconscious trauma patient, they wouldn't know their religous prefrence unless they've been there and it's been prevously specified, furthermore, if there isn't someone (family or MPOA) stating they don't want blood products, or advanced directives stating specifications of heroic measures wanted, the trauma team is going to do what's necessary to save that persons life. Also, religous practices when it comes to allowed medical procedures, emergency or not, are not common knowledge among most doctors. I doubt that the attending trauma dr is going to say "oh he's a jw...no blood products."

everyone should be punished for being fucking retarded.
its the law.

stupid people usually have stupid kids. this gets their genes out of the pool.

I think they should be praised and then shot.

one thing that confuses me is why you wouldn't want a doctor to practice medicine on your child, but you would do cpr when they stop breathing. i could probably understand it more easily if the distinction was between administering and not administering drugs, and maybe that is the deal here, but it's not clear from the article.

yes, i realize this comment doesn't address the question.

andrew davidoff

lock the parents up.

thas bad.

both sets of parents need to be locked up..

its one thing if youre over the of 18.. its another thing if its a kid.

and both should be tried for murder.

end of story.

Sure it's dumb and sure it's idiotic to let a treatable ailment to go untreated to the point of a child dying, but you can't send people to jail for a religous belief that they've been taught their entire life. Do I agree with it? No. Do I think it's retarded that people don't believe in the practice of medicine over prayer? Of course. But you can't be locked up for religon.

Fully agreed, here.

to that.

and a big to the parents who would let their kid die from something like that.

God probably did help them, they just didn't' except his answer of "take her to a hospital"
shit god probably made their car break down in front of the hospital and they didn't take the hint.

reminds me of the joke about the guy in the flood stuck on a roof. when a rescue boat comes by and says"hey get in" the guy says , "no god will save me"... then a helicopter comes and the guy says "no god will save me." the guy drowns and goes to heaven
he asks god "god why didn't you save me" and god says
"I SENT YOU A BOAT AND A HELICOPTER WHAT ELSE DID YOU WANT ME TO DO"

It's not murder if they actually believe that prayer will help. Negligence maybe but not murder. You can't send someone to jail for a religous belief.

No, but you can if the consequence of that belief is homicide/neglect/child abuse.

exactly what andy said.

religious faith to the point of medical ignorance is neglect.

This is an affront to my atheism.

For sure. I agree, its' both ignorant and negligent but I don't think it's murder.

the parents could be tried under 3rd degree murder..

taken from wikipedia(take it with a grain of salt)..



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder

If they wanted to press the issue, then the parents could be tried for murder..

But there wasn't a "reckless indifference to human life" these people genuinely thought that by praying their child would get better by God's will. It's not as if they had a complete disregard to the childs life or malicous intent by letting the condition go untreated. They're just ignorant to medical fact because the religon they choose to follow states otherwise.

apparently not in wisconsin , cause they keep quoting some law that if their religious beliefs are that they can't seek medical attention then there is no crime committed. they might get away with this. i bet they are so glad they moved to Wisconsin.. they probably checked before hand so when their daughter died they wouldn't be prosecuted. which means they knew she would die from their neglect. i think they wanted her to die.

I don't think that at all. That's a lot of effort to go through just to have a dead child.

thats just it.. that is alot of effort to go through to have a dead child and not go to prison. i'd say moving a thousand miles away from home is a small price to pay for not going to prison for murdering your child.

The problem with this is that by not prosecuting them, religion here clearly supercedes law. The law knows that prayer isn't medicine. Thus, by murdering their child with "prayers" for her better health, they should be prosecuted.

If the law says I have to spend money with "under god", say "under god" in the pledge of allegiance, stand in weddings and endure religious doctrine, then they have to take their ill child to a hospital in lieu of the obvious fact their daughter wasn't getting any better with the "method" they chose. Flying spaghetti monster or not, they killed their child, thus the affront to my atheism.


[edit] I will note that the examples given aren't life or death situations, but their overall insignificance should help point out how much more significant the human life is in this instance.