My brother is working on some homework for a Christian Heritage class. At least I think that's the class.. Here is the issue he's trying to sort though (breaks are where the conversation was about something else):

[10:30] Brother: what's the difference between being created and begotten?

[10:32] Brother: yeah so, i gotta figure out that begotten thing, apparently the god types had whole ecumenical councils on it, makes no sense

[10:33] Brother: christ wasn't created, he was begotten, but he always was too, so yeah

[10:33] Godzilla: well, created virtually means that he was made through the usual fertilization process

[10:33] Godzilla: but begotten, i guess that means that he just.. was.

[10:34] Brother: why all the begotten if he already was
[10:34] Godzilla: Well he wasn't really created.
[10:34] Godzilla: He just all of a sudden became a being.
[10:34] Brother: he wasn't created, he was begotten
[10:34] Godzilla: Nothing one sec, baby jesus the next
[10:34] Brother: but he always was
[10:34] Godzilla: not always
[10:34] Godzilla: he wasn't always...
[10:34] Brother: yeah huh
[10:35] Godzilla: well your biblical knowledge is obviously better than mine
[10:35] Brother: just like god, the father and the son always were, but the father begot the son, but they always were
[10:35] Godzilla: but what I understood, there was God, and then there was jesus, who god "created"
[10:35] Godzilla: but didn't create
[10:35] Godzilla: I guess I would say that Jesus as an idea, as a spirit or a thought always was.
[10:36] Godzilla: But the physical form was begotten
[10:36] Brother: he can't create him, he's divine, that's why he begot him, but he always was
[10:37] Brother: that and the whole trinity thing, the father the son and the holy ghost are one thing but three seperate things, always were, but each begot another, but they always were, and they're different, but the same
[10:37] Godzilla: Hrmm.
[10:37] Godzilla: What was the question again?
[10:37] Brother: exactly
[10:38] Brother: faith is the answer, i've forgotten the question
[10:38] Godzilla: That's a great quote.
[10:38] Godzilla: Did you make that up?
[10:38] Brother: yeah i did, that is kinda cool
[10:38] Godzilla: Work that in there somehow.

[10:52] Brother: jesus is divine, therefore he could not have been created, he was begotten, but he always was and always will be, but he was begotten somehow, and the father and son are the same, but different, but the father begot the son, but the son always was, and the holy ghost comes in somewhere, and the three are the same, one person/thing but three separate things, and one kinda begot another, but they all always were and always will be, but some sorta begotting went on, and the result was one god/three gods, but they're just one, cause christians are monotheistic, but they're three too, and somehow begotten, and saying anything else is heresy

Opinions? My brother and I are both agnostic, so it's hard for me to wrap my head around all this religion hooha. He decided to go to Baylor (why?!) so religion comes up all the time in our conversations now... I need help with this one :)

Whoa, whoa, whoa. haha

I just wanted to say that before I think too hard about any of that.

Begotten is the past tense of beget derived from Old English Begitan which is a more formal way of saying created through reproductive methods. Procreate is a much better word in this sense especially since most of the English versions of the new testement were at some point translated from or through latin and specifically 'procreatis'. Pro meaning something along the lines of benifiting from or being a gift of create(ion). Creation of course being the act of God that brings all of the world into existance. So Begotten would mean something along the lines of being created with the aid of God for our benefit. A gift from the divine you might say.

The whole who-ha about the trinity is an issue that can be debated until the original debaters are dead, we are dead, and christianity has evolved into something else indistinguishable from modern day christianity just as it has from the days of Christ, but I believe what you are looking for is the relationship between the three and here I offer one possibility.

The three parts consisting of mind(father), body(son), and spirit(holy ghost) are supposedly unified under some sort of mind bogling power that keeps the three seperate to the point that they cannot be percieved as one, but are yet one as they are the same ultimately as the power that keeps them seperate. Now if you were able to follow that, you will understand the confusion people have when they have a hard time figuring out if christianity is monotheistic, polytheistic, or pantheistic. These three entities are representative of many things. The Spirit/Holy Ghost portion of the trinity in some of the older sects of christianity that weren't so masaganistic was representative of the Mother or as refered to in paganism, the Godess. So, we have a 'Father', a 'Son', and a 'Mother'. So in this picture, you have an original god that is split apart along the lines of masculinity and femininity and reunited in the trinity by means of procreation(procreatis) or "Begotten unto Man".

I hope this helps.

Exactly.

You = smart
and Thanks :)

I take into consideration that the bible, all religious sermons, laws, rules, traditions, etc, were written by man. Maybe men plural but it definitely wasn't just didn't hop off god's mind and into existence like most people want you to think. The bible has been rewritten/translated so many times from the original that most of whats in there is hoo ha anyway now. It's like that game telephone. If everyone passes the message along, pretty soon its not the same message.

Some ancient versions of the Gospel of Luke read: "You are my son; today I have begotten you." If you view this version in the context of Jesus being baptized and then having the Holy Spirit descend upon him, it indicates that Jesus was a man who became the Son of God when the Holy Spirit descended upon him. So, in this view, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, and Jesus was a man who became divine through God's will...basically, an adopted Son of God.

Anyway, I thought this was kinda interesting about 8 years ago, when I was doing a lot of research on the Bible.

I enjoyed this part of your intellectual out pourings the most. I have never heard it like this before. It kinda shows how sexist Christian teaching can be. I was raised Christian but find it hard to believe it all myself and have found just having a faith easier on the soul to except that all religions have a basis. No one ever explained it like this..cool, thanks! I have to admit I find the first commandment the hardest sometimes, it's interesting how we are not supposed to have any other Gods before God and yet we have to go to Jesus to get our sins forgiven, this never really made any sense to me. Tie in that with the whole Mother, Father, Son thing and..ouch my head hurts too now.

Religion is pretty messed up, but only if you take it too seriously.

Actually, that's not true. The original writings in the languages which the Bible was written in still exist today.

Google "concordance".


It's probably best to look at the definitions of the Arabic/Hebrew terms that are used in the Bible rather than looking up the etymology of the English translation.

For instance, the original greek for John 3:16 uses the Hebrew word "monogenes" which is translated into english as "only begotton". It could also mean "unique" and "greatly beloved".

Check out http://blueletterbible.org/ -- they have a great concordance feature for these types of things when the English translation seems unclear.

so how did those original writings occur? are they like the book of mormon, written by the hand of god? im pretty sure it was some dude who wrote it. and im sure that dude had opinions and biases and beliefs that conciously or not, made their way into his writings be it in undertones, or coming right out and saying it. but we will never know. unless anyone on here is 2041 years old and living in the middle east during chronicling jesus life during that time period. and if such a person did exist, he would also have opinions, beliefs, and biases that affect the manner in which he relayed the information to you.

The Bible is pretty clear about who wrote what, you may want to do some research yourself before spouting off random BS. There's a huge difference between several coinciding eye-witness accounts of events and some guy writing down shit he read with "magic glasses".

Also, some of the books of the Bible are a hell of a lot older than 2000 years.

Look at the similarities between early Muslim, Christian and Jewish writings. Are you suggesting that three entirely different cultures from different sides of the world happen to have the same copies of ancient text is just a coincidence? How can we test the authenticity of writings 1000 years old, let alone 5000?

The short answer to how we know is "we're doing the best we can". There are entire college degrees based on this shit, hardly anything you and I could cover accurately in a messageboard discussion.

I'd also like to point out that the Holy Trinity are all one and the same. It's like saying I have a Brain, some Intestines and a pair of Testes. They're all different and perform completely different functions, yet all are all part of the whole.

Regarding the comment of "going to Jesus to forgive sins" is nullified by my above statement. Jesus is God, therefore you're not really doing anything different except siphoning your sins through a vessel.

...you also have to remember there are many different versions of the bible as well. there's something going on right now with the cristians and the king james version. i try to stay away from those kinda debates....


The anitchrist will come in the form of good to gain followers then reveal itself. can we say mega churches.... scary.