those proofs are fucking stupid. seriously. they all rest on shaky premises and make illogical conclusions. regardless of god's existence, by nature it is impossible to 'prove' that god exists.....

i see them as completely logical... but whatever... *shrugs*

keep in mind that it is also impossible to 'prove' that we exist.

YAY We dont and neither does god then! Wo0t!

now THAT's an end to this discussion!

w00t!

BULLSHIT.

we can prove we exist because we are directly observable.

god is not directly observable.

end of debate.

DIE MOTHERFUCKERS DIE MOTHERFUCKERS DIE

bwahahah...

this conversation just went over bakar's head.



we meant prove in the philosophical, first order predicate logic sense. but yes you're right, we do exist.

besides, just because something is not directly observable doesn't mean it doesn't exist. what about stars who's light hasn't reached us yet?

Everyone's trying to win an unwinnable argument.

My God can beat up your God!

light being the fastest travelling 'thing' in the universe. if their light (or other emission) has not reached us yet, we would have no information about their existance nor any percieved effects of their existance... thus, for all purposes we cannot say they exist yet

oh, so you're one of those "if the tree falls in a forest and nobody is around to hear it it never made a sound" kinda guys.

gotcha.

it's not about winning, it's about the persuit of truth (see definition of 'philosophy').

if you don't like it, then you don't have to read it. seems simple enough.

im not saying it didnt make a sound, im saying that no one knows it fell so if it made a sound or not is moot.

so do you feel that questioning the existance of God is moot?

in a word. yes.

Intelligence is of no use here, we're talking about magical figures who live in the sky.

Fuck people it's just a story.

we're talking about the meaning of life and the origins of reality and intelligence itself.

and our lives are just a story.

Fuck Religion.

Religion from the statistical point of view:
What is the probability that the universe could simply pop into existence from a dimensionless void? 1/infinity
What is the probability that a planet that can support life could come to existence randomly? 1/10^60
What is the probability that life began millions of years ago from a chemical soup and a 10,000 year long elecrical storm? 1/10^20
What is the probability that the human body has evolved accidentally to produce the most powerful hallucinogen (DMT) that has absolutely no rational purpose for survival or reproduction? I'm not sure but it can't be much less than the soup theory...

If I were a gambling person, I'd play the odds and assume something is out there. Maybe I'm wrong, but thats the way I see it.
btw, I subscribe to a very general pantheism. Former athiest.

i dont know where the fuck you get those numbers but they sound like theyre pulled from a bucket of assholes to me.


just remember, a room of monkeys and typewriters and youll get the collected works of shakespeare.

just remember that.

exactly. you only have a notion of "god" because you were told of him. the "word of god" can only exist through word of mouth. if i grew up on a deserted island on my own, i would have no notion that he existed unless he opened the skies and kicked me in the ass. fact is, god can only exist through FAITH. faith that was a seed planted in your mind. you were given a choice wether to let this seed grow. but i think we all are avoiding the REAL truth. the fact that we were really created by aliens.

The Bible has a reference to the effect of even if no one reads these words they are still written on their hearts.

Damn okay no more posting in this endless debate.

first order predicate logic to prove the existence of god? you're going to have to go a lot deeper into the logic world.

the more i read this thread the more i realize i am surrounded (to a large extent) by morons.

what standard should i use then that you would agree to?

Doesn't religious faith by definition usually involve an acceptance of paridigms that cannot be proven logically? Dammit, I swore I wasn't going to post in this thread anymore!